I’ve seen many reactions to the death of Osama flying around the web and on Facebook. Some of them are distasteful and some are simply misguided. In the midst of it all, one or two questions popped into my mind. How does God view the death of his enemies, especially the leaders of his enemies? What are we to say and preach about these things?
In relation to the death of God’s enemies, two Messianic Psalms come to mind – Pss 2 and 110. These Psalms present Yahweh as laughing as his human opposition – holding them in derision. These Psalms present Messiah as conquering his enemies – filling his path with corpses. These rulers (fighting against Yahweh and his Christ) are admonished to bow down, kiss, pay homage to the Son, lest he get angry and cause them to perish. Now, I’ve heard a lot of preaching about Jesus, but I have not heard much of THIS Jesus presented. We’re usually presented with a Jesus who wants to save but cannot (unless we let him), and a Jesus who wants to conquer (maybe), but cannot… Oh, but don’t worry, cuz he conquers in the end… somehow. Contrary to so much “Evangelical” limp-wristed portraits of Jesus, Pss 2 and 110 present us with a conquering Messiah.
Now, here’s a twist: we’re all enemies of God by nature. Some of his enemies (indeed, MANY of them) he conquers by converting them:
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Rom 5:6-11
Praise God for that unspeakable grace to undeserving sinners, indeed, enemies! But how are we to understand these two things: one the one hand God crushes his enemies and on the other he reconciles them through the blood of Christ. One thing that stands out to me is that both Pss 2 and 110 make reference to the chiefs and rules of the opposition. While Christ will fill his path with the corpses of ALL of his enemies, the leaders of his enemies are singled out as objects of his wrath.
Osama bin Laden should certainly be viewed as a leader of the opposition to Christ, should he not? Not only was his life one of opposition to God, but he was a leader of those opposed to God. As such, he would be pinpointed as one whom Christ threatens specifically.
So, from a Christian point of view, I think we are to rejoice in the death of Osama bin Laden – a high-handed enemy of Jesus Christ. Christ has gloriously triumphed and we should praise him for that. On the other hand we’re to pray for the bin Laden family, desiring their salvation. We should pray for the utter destruction of Islam and for the conversion of its adherents to Christ. Our message is not just salvation through Jesus Christ, but also the complete destruction of his enemies (especially the leaders of his enemies). These are parts of the message we present.
It has been interesting to say the least. The first thought that came to my mind as people started quoting that Ezekiel verse was the picture of David dancing as he came back from defeating his enemy. And how God responded to the woman who said he shouldn’t be celebrating.
And this awesome quote:
“I do not think it means what you think it means.”
~Do I need to site the source?
I can’t agree more with you or I would spoiled it .You have once more nailed where it should be .All I can can say Amen . What comes in my mind is the history of this country and the early puritans/piligrims that in cases like this they will call it “the handy work of providence ” delivering them form the wicked one and their enemies, while that could be a king or a bishop or anyone that was an enemy to them and their gospel . On the William Bradford’s account of the Plymouth Plantation it was stated as great rejoicing over a young man’s death ( from the storm being thrown overboard into sea) that was mistreating them mocking their persons and their misery while traveling on the Mayflower . Prayers and Thanksgiving were offered to the Lord for their deliverance even for a thing like that.
So yes , I believe it is a great joy indeed !
This is a good article for writing of.
Can we really consider ourselves able to apply the Psalms to Osama bin Laden? To do so is to elevate the US to Israel, ultimately representing God’s chosen. This seems to be exegesis filtered through nationalism. Yuck.
Mike, not a bit. I wrote about how the reigning CHRIST disposes of the leaders of HIS enemies. The issue of the United States is related, but please don’t read that into what I wrote. The USA is God’s servant of vengeance, but is no more “God’s people” than were the Assyrians and the Babylonians. I actually had a whole other section on just this topic, but I wanted to keep the blog post smaller.
By the way, thanks for stopping by and for commenting!
(Quote from Princess bride?).
God gave us the means to protect ourselves, and we are not wanton in the abolition of vermin like bin laden. He turned from the face of God.
Tim,
Every time I read a post from you, I am more and more convinced that you are being led astray. Your doctrine of determination doesn’t cooperate with your convictions to celebrate the death of Bin Laden.
You believe God’s will determines everything. And that we cannot deter from His will. Bin Laden was not provided God’s irresistible grace, therefore he could do nothing but what he did. He is no different than any other sinful, depraved human that does not know God and lives a life apart from God every day. My older brother does not know God and lives as an agnostic. His views and understanding of the world lead people away from God all the time (oh, I am sorry… man cannot lead others away from God… it is already determined).
So why would you, as a Calvinistic Christian, rejoice in the demise of a man who did not have God’s changing grace to begin with? Surely God is the judge and His determination of this man’s eternal resting place is His doing (in your view), but rejoicing that God did not pick Him for salvation is nothing to rejoice about… right? If my brother dies tomorrow… should I rejoice in his demise? Or should I morn that he wasn’t saved?
Mark, you persist in your VERY SIMPLISTIC view of Reformed theology. I won’t address that now. It’s enough to say that you are in league with Paul’s adversary in Romans 9: “But you will say, O man, ‘How shall he still find fault, for who has resisted his will?’” – You’re backing the wrong horse, brother.
As to my rejoicing, I make it abundantly clear from my discussion of the two Psalms the difference between a leaders of God’s enemies (e.g., Osama) and the rank and file of God’s enemies (e.g., your brother). I read all through the Scriptures about God’s people rejoicing at the overthrow and destruction of God’s enemies. I’ll side with that biblical testimony instead of our current-day sappy sentimentalism.
Tim, Not simplistic, just summarized.
I am not in league with Paul’s adversary because I don’t ask the question that Paul’s adversary asks… that would mean I have a problem with Paul’s statement and I don’t, I just interpret it differently than you do… because I know that Paul isn’t inferring what you deem he is. Your claim that Paul is spouting determinism is false.
I side with Scripture instead of modern-day judgmental American Christianity.
Remember, everything that David did, God did not approve of… He just tolerated. David was a polygamist, murderer, adulterer, liar, etc… and just because the Bible tells the “without error” story of all he did, doesn’t make all he did righteous or correct.
Proverbs 24:17 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles.
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Matthew 5:43-48 You have heard that it was said, “You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.” But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
How can we love our enemies, yet as soon as they die, rejoice in their demise?
We must have a different response than those that dance in joy today. We should rejoice that justice was served, but we must do so with heavy hearts. We should mourn the loss of life that Bin Laden caused. We should grieve the sin that filled his heart and led him to his eternal torment. We should also mourn the loss of his life, as every life is precious in God’s eyes. There is no doubt that this loss of life is just, but it is equally a tragedy.
As followers of Christ, we are grateful that justice is served, but we shouldn’t joyfully dance on the grave of a man who is lost for eternity. God’s vengeance is His, not ours.
Prov 24 – The text says our enemies; bin Laden is not my personal enemy. We are to rejoice in the fall of GOD’S enemies. That’s all through the Bible, including the Psalms that I quoted.
Ez 33 – O House of Israel – was bin Laden an Israelite? This text is widely misused.
Mark, how CAN you be grateful when justice is served? How can you be grateful that bin Laden is in hell? Who is “dancing on the grave” … that’s an obvious caricature, which should be clear enough from my post.
Tim,
Sure the human response is celebration throughout the Bible to the defeat of God’s enemies… but the only one who truly got it right in life was Jesus… not David or others who celebrated at the death of people.
Surely the Bible makes it clear that we all fall short, and while they often celebrated the defeat of God’s enemies, it doesn’t make it Jesus’ commands to us as Christians. Can you show me a place in the Bible where Jesus commands us to celebrate the death of people? I can surely show you where he commands us to love, pray, forgive, etc…
We’re usually presented with a Jesus who wants to save but cannot (unless we let him), and a Jesus who wants to conquer (maybe), but cannot… Oh, but don’t worry, cuz he conquers in the end… somehow. Contrary to so much “Evangelical” limp-wristed portraits of Jesus, Pss 2 and 110 present us with a conquering Messiah.
Your premise to begin with, is wrong. Jesus is presented as a God who wants to save but will not, and a Jesus who wants to conquer and does conquer… always… but some can’t see Him conquering by allowing… they believe conquering is always death or damnation of the sinner… when instead it is His conquering sin and death and Satan so that we have a debt paid… all we have to do is receive this gift of salvation… it is not forced.
Mark,
all we have to do is receive this gift of salvation… it is not forced.
You are getting away from the Bible by putting the emphasis on man’s decision and whether or not it is forced. Actually, you are partly right: it isn’t an issue of force but of new ability granted to the elect so that they might believe. Your view, on the other hand, avoids the Biblical teaching of human inability in sin entirely.
What do the Scriptures say?
“To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.” (Titus 1:15)
“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Romans 8:7-8)
“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (I Corinthians 2:14)
“And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.” (Acts 13:48)
You are getting away from the Bible by putting the emphasis on man’s decision and whether or not it is forced. Actually, you are partly right: it isn’t an issue of force but of new ability granted to the elect so that they might believe. Your view, on the other hand, avoids the Biblical teaching of human inability in sin entirely.
Sorry, Brandon, but it would only be a new ability granted if the elect could turn it down… but the truth is, Calvanism dictates that the elect cannot turn God down once this ability is given… therefore it remains forced and you cannot argue out of it.
If you argued that the elect were given this ability… the ability to believe… and they could still choose to not believe, I would be on your side.
John 3:16 Whosever believes shall have eternal life… not whosever is saved shall believe.
Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved… not thou shalt be saved and then you shalt confess, believe.
Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.. not be saved and then believe.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name… we have to receive Him in order to be saved.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins… if we do not believe we will die in sin… not if we are not elected… election is secondary to belief.
Joh 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them… why would Jesus have to ask us to believe in the light? If we are elect… of course we will… He does not have to ask… it is because election follows belief.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe…. ????? what???? to save them that believe? Wow… says it all.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe… they have to believe first… not after.
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Again and again, we see that belief is required for salvation, not salvation is required for belief. Man can believe before God saves him.
but it would only be a new ability granted if the elect could turn it down… but the truth is, Calvanism dictates that the elect cannot turn God down once this ability is given… therefore it remains forced and you cannot argue out of it.
False dilemma. How can you be so sure that God can change the heart so that the elect freely believe?
You completely dodged the four texts I quoted. I’ll have to make a note of that.
It is interesting the way you think the long litany of texts you cite backs up the absolute free will view. Galatians 3:22 and I Cor. 1:21, for instance are not proof texts for human belief being the ultimate cause of election and new life. For example, you isolate I Cor. 1:21 from its context. Paul states the preaching of the cross is the power of God to those are saved. By your reading his reference to power is nonsensical because its all about bare choice.
Do we actually place ourselves in Him before the foundation of the world? Do we make ourselves alive? So from where does faith come?
“To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue” (II Peter 1:1-3)
Is belief excepted from “all things that pertain to life and godliness”?
II Thessalonian 1:11 connects the “the work of faith with power” with God’s good pleasure.
The passages you mention have to be put in the context of God making us alive, giving us a new heat, delivering us from spiritual blindness and a predisposition to do only evil (Genesis 6:5 and 8:21). You view would have us believe that those described in Paul’s litany in Romans 3 turn around without God’s help and seek God under their own power. Problem: Paul quotes Psalms 14 and 53 and Ecclesiastes 7 which say that none seek after God. What do you do with those passages.
What about when John says that we love Him because He first loved us?
CORRECTION: I meant to ask Mark how he could be so sure that God cannot change the heart in such a way that the elect believe freely.
You completely dodged the four texts I quoted. I’ll have to make a note of that.
I did. Because anybody can quote out of context and make verses seem to say what they already believe.
“Jesus wept”.
See Jesus was a cry baby and cried all the time.
I see you doged most of my text as well, but you did it in a way of focusing on the part of text that I wasn’t commenting on.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe…. ????? what???? to save them that believe? Wow… says it all.
You said, For example, you isolate I Cor. 1:21 from its context. Paul states the preaching of the cross is the power of God to those are saved. By your reading his reference to power is nonsensical because its all about bare choice.
1. I didn’t say it was all about bare choice.
2. Of course it is about the redeemed preaching the cross.
3. I was commenting on the order of salvation. “Save them that believe.” My point was that it is this way throughout Scripture… belief / faith and then salvation… salvation is determined by faith and belief.
The fact that you focus on other items despite my many textual proofs, shows that you are trying to prove your belief via Scripture, instead of using Scripture to form your belief.
I’ll have to take note of that.
salvation is determined by faith and belief
Mark,
That line is truly a rich one. You explain away the teaching of God’s sovereignty and avoid any engagement with the Bible’s teaching on human bondage in sin. Now you argue for determinism– determinism by the will of man.
Did you not quote those 19 passages in order to show that salvation is determined by human choice, since there is no death in sin to overcome before man can believe, since all that predestination stuff in the Scriptures has to be swept aside as irrelevant, since the natural man cannot understand the things of God but since you can’t process that the natural man can understand the things of God after all?
I’ll make you a deal: read my four texts and offer an interpretation and I will then engage your nineteen. But no cutting and pasting from the work of others.
I think that the revelation of God’s will toward His enemies was not as complete in the OT as it is in the NT. Yes God does not change, but it became far clearer in the NT that God loves His enemies, indeed to the point of dying for them, and that we are to love them as well. This was not a commandment that was given nor a theme that was stressed in the OT (barring some exceptions). So the Psalms do not always present the clearest picture of God’s heart with regard to the death of evil men (not to mention that they are often poetic expressions of the hearts of fallen men – does God really bless the dashing of babies heads on rocks, for instance?). God eventually wanted to move Israel beyond a national focus to see that God loves and desires the salvation of everyone.
I do believe we can rejoice that something close to justice was accomplished with Bin Laden. We however also ought to mourn that He chose damnation rather than salvation at the same time. I believe that is the balanced Christian response.
CORRECTION: I meant to ask Mark how he could be so sure that God cannot change the heart in such a way that the elect believe freely.
But I do believe that He can. You keep throwing in the term “cannot” as if a Christian believes there are things God cannot do. There is a difference between “cannot” and will not” or “does not”. And since we already freely believe, He does not have to change the heart in that capacity. Sure, He makes it easier by opening our eyes and our hearts out of darkness, but He doesn’t take away that choice we have always had/have to turn to Him in our darkness and/or to turn away from Him once we have the light. The Prodigal Son is a great example of a child of God leaving for a time… still saved… but no longer walking in the light. God waits for Him as opposed to leaving the 99 to find the 1 as He would with non-believers (Prodigal God… good book… you should read it if you haven’t already).
“To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.” (Titus 1:15)
This says nothing in contrast to free will and belief/faith before salvation. In our depraved state before we are in relationship with God and we are unbelieving, we are defiled.
“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Romans 8:7-8)
Again, nothing about belief/faith before salvation. Same as above verse.
“But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (I Corinthians 2:14)
Same here… in our natural state we will never understand God. Anything He would send our way via the Spirit would be foolishness. Until we repent, turn from our sin, and believe… only then will God enter our hearts and the foolishness becomes wisdom.
“And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.” (Acts 13:48)
Just showing that all who have salvation are believers. We already agree on this.
I am pretty sure you will find fault with what I have given you here. I did copy and paste your quotes… I hope you don’t mind.
I showed this to my wife and asked her opinion, and her response was, “I don’t know… all I want to do is go to heaven.” And she majored in philosophy and literature. Sometimes I wonder if I focus to much on the non-essentials myself. But I do love a good debate.
I side with the Calvinists. Certianly God softens the hearts so we do believe. How many of us came without God’s compulsion.
It’s my opinion that the inherent weakness in libertarian ideaology is this notion that God responds to us because we cause ourselves to believe.
Mark if you wife majored in philosphy then she should understand (to some degree) epistemology. Ask her about that and ask her if people CHOOSE to believe something. I don’t believe we do.
If I told you eternal life rests on your belief that there are moral agents living on mars who run a hamburger stand, would you believe it? Is it the threat that causes us to believe?
Libertarians speak as if God softened their heart because they were already softening it – nonsesne.
The reason we are humble is because God destroys our arrogance and we neither pray for that (because we’re in unbelief) nor do we cause it (arrogance never seeks it’s own destruction).
It is God alone as the cause of why we believe as he tells Isreal…”I will put my spirit in you and CAUSE you to walk in my ways and keep my commands”. – As if it were up to Isreal.
Gene,
Thanks for your response, however, I find it every so difficult to understand why you cannot understand what I am conveying… nothing you just posted is what I have said, nor what I believe. Perhaps it is me and my communication style.
It’s my opinion that the inherent weakness in libertarian ideology is this notion that God responds to us because we cause ourselves to believe.
I do not know anyone who believes in free will who thinks we cause ourselves to believe.
Mark if you wife majored in philosophy then she should understand (to some degree) epistemology. Ask her about that and ask her if people CHOOSE to believe something. I don’t believe we do.
I do not need to ask her as it would be ridiculous to think that somebody chooses to believe… if that were so, I could chose to believe this ridiculous notion.
If I told you eternal life rests on your belief that there are moral agents living on Mars who run a hamburger stand, would you believe it? Is it the threat that causes us to believe?
Again… ridiculous. As this would make no sense to a sane person, a sane person would not believe this. However, the universe and creation all point to a creator… so not hard to believe as evidenced by all the different false religions out there. God will respond to an earnest and seeking heart. And I don’t deny that He chooses those to Himself, but He does have reasons other than just because… or for His glory… because there is no glory in arbitrarily leaving people in their sin… unless he does it for everybody or nobody. So everybody must have the exact same responsibility for their sin and the exact same way out of their sin.
Libertarians speak as if God softened their heart because they were already softening it – nonsense.
That would be nonsense if that is what I/we believed.
The reason we are humble is because God destroys our arrogance and we neither pray for that (because we’re in unbelief) nor do we cause it (arrogance never seeks its own destruction).
Some are in unbelief, some are not. And I disagree that arrogance never seeks its own destruction. That would mean that all non-believers could never change from arrogant to humble. I know many non-believers who are not arrogant. And famous ones who come to mind are Mother Theresa and Gandhi. I put her in this category because I don’t know if she was saved.
It is God alone as the cause of why we believe as he tells Israel…”I will put my spirit in you and CAUSE you to walk in my ways and keep my commands”. – As if it were up to Israel.
This has nothing to do with belief… it has everything to do with walking in God’s ways and keeping His commandments. For example, I believe in God and have for a while… however, in the beginning, as an immature Christian, I had difficulty walking in His ways… I had to learn this from the Spirit via prayer and reading Scripture.
The mistake you make is that you think we believe we choose to believe… we don’t… I don’t. I know I came to believe because it all makes sense and I was searching for what made sense. God makes it easier to continue to believe by lifting the veil when I am elected. Now I cannot fathom why I never believed in the first place… the evidence is overwhelming… unlike it was when I first started to seek His face. This is why I prayed, “God, if you are real, I need you in my life.” There are many out there that believe God exists, but do not believe in Him or place their faith in Him.
Gene,
Thanks for your response, however, I find it every so difficult to understand why you cannot understand what I am conveying… nothing you just posted is what I have said, nor what I believe. Perhaps it is me and my communication style.
It’s my opinion that the inherent weakness in libertarian ideology is this notion that God responds to us because we cause ourselves to believe.
I do not know anyone who believes in free will who thinks we cause ourselves to believe.
Mark if you wife majored in philosophy then she should understand (to some degree) epistemology. Ask her about that and ask her if people CHOOSE to believe something. I don’t believe we do.
I do not need to ask her as it would be ridiculous to think that somebody chooses to believe… if that were so, I could chose to believe this ridiculous notion.
If I told you eternal life rests on your belief that there are moral agents living on Mars who run a hamburger stand, would you believe it? Is it the threat that causes us to believe?
Again… ridiculous. As this would make no sense to a sane person, a sane person would not believe this. However, the universe and creation all point to a creator… so not hard to believe as evidenced by all the different false religions out there. God will respond to an earnest and seeking heart. And I don’t deny that He chooses those to Himself, but He does have reasons other than just because… or for His glory… because there is no glory in arbitrarily leaving people in their sin… unless he does it for everybody or nobody. So everybody must have the exact same responsibility for their sin and the exact same way out of their sin.
Libertarians speak as if God softened their heart because they were already softening it – nonsense.
That would be nonsense if that is what I/we believed.
The reason we are humble is because God destroys our arrogance and we neither pray for that (because we’re in unbelief) nor do we cause it (arrogance never seeks its own destruction).
Some are in unbelief, some are not. And I disagree that arrogance never seeks its own destruction. That would mean that all non-believers could never change from arrogant to humble. I know many non-believers who are not arrogant. And famous ones who come to mind are Mother Theresa and Gandhi. I put her in this category because I don’t know if she was saved.
It is God alone as the cause of why we believe as he tells Israel…”I will put my spirit in you and CAUSE you to walk in my ways and keep my commands”. – As if it were up to Israel.
This has nothing to do with belief… it has everything to do with walking in God’s ways and keeping His commandments. For example, I believe in God and have for a while… however, in the beginning, as an immature Christian, I had difficulty walking in His ways… I had to learn this from the Spirit via prayer and reading Scripture.
The mistake you make is that you think we believe we choose to believe… we don’t… I don’t. I know I came to believe because it all makes sense and I was searching for what made sense. God makes it easier to continue to believe by lifting the veil when I am elected. Now I cannot fathom why I never believed in the first place… the evidence is overwhelming… unlike it was when I first started to seek His face. This is why I prayed, “God, if you are real, I need you in my life.” There are many out there that believe God exists, but do not believe in Him or place their faith in Him.
Mark,
forgive me if I’ve misunderstood your free will position. It is true that I like so many often can lump everyone together and I agree it’s not fair. If I’m doing that I do ask for forgivness as I don’t mean to put ideas or words in your mouth. I hate it when others do that to me and I want to love, care and respect others as well.
It’s hard however for me to understand how people understand free will (and many of my closest friends are no different than you). I have taken a different point of view not because I refuse to see the truth, but precisely the opposite, Calvinism makes more sense to me.
You say “The mistake you make is that you think we believe we choose to believe… we don’t… I don’t. ”
If you don’t choose to bellieve, then how can you call if “freely believing”. Isn’t the point in LFW is that to be free is to be able to do otherwise? If you could do otherwise then you made a choice? So how would you frame this? Could you explain to me how you hold:
a) we believe freely.
b) we don’t choose to believe
I admit I may be misunderstanding you here. So perhaps you can clarify.
And thank you too for your response, it’s always good to hear from respectful people.
Gene
Thanks Gene, and I too apologize for any disparities.
To believe freely, to me, means that there is no outside influence that forces me to believe in one way only.
I believe that God influences and that God nudges and compels, but in no way does He supply an irrestable grace that requires me to choose only Him. This is why some choose God and some choose self.
I love steak and I will always choose steak over eggplant. The smell of steak, the look of steak, the taste of steak compel me to pick steak, to eat steak, and forgo eggplant. But I am not “forced” to eat steak, I eat it because it appeals to me. There are, however, some who would choose eggplant every time. They, too, are not forced to eat eggplant.
The Calvinist believes that God intervenes in such a way that man cannot do anything but choose Him. I believe that God intervenes with a resistable grace that compels and nudges us gently to see Him outside of our sin and this is what we respond to… and it is given to everybody… and not everybody chooses Steak… some choose eggplant.